Question: Who represented their side on buy and hold vs trading better?

Jeremy Lvancevic: The person who earns the most is right. You can’t say one strategy is better than another. There are people on both sides of those investing strategies that do better than each other.

Ralf Holger: Historically buy and hold wins…too difficult to time the market

Mike Burna: I would day buy and hold

Richard Carroll: The person who matches their investing style most closely to their income needs is the winner.

Ben TheGrundalows: If your an active trader focused on dividend growth investing you are doing it wrong

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, everyone knows what is buy and hold. what is the definition of trading you posted. i do not time the market, never have. as far as i know there are no studies ever done comparing buy and hold to trading. since there literally thousands of different trading strategies it would be impossible to design. seems to me you should stick to what you do.

Ralf Holger: active trading will hurt most amateur investors ……/day-trading…

Day Trading vs. Long Term Investing – Trading Stocks – Trading Stocks Guide

Joseph Stadelnikas: i wouldn’t know, i am not an active trader

Frank Smith: Joseph this will be my only post in this thread, you seem unwilling to accept anything except your own position.1) Your opinion is that options are conservative, while using margin is risky2) Your opinion that options are safer than owning stocks.3) Everyone understand buy and hold, as per Warren Buffet’s advice, however over 50% of the population are not in the market in any way not even a 401k, did you read the article I postedEveryone can do the “simple” calculation for your strategyEveryone has at least 20K to invest.Joseph, again you are a good opponent, but is every one else wrong, except for you?If you want a response from me, please do through another thread, I only want to see other people’s opinions.Gotta go to church!

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, i never once said every one else is wrong, if you direct me to the thread where i said that i would be interested. you are probably more of an active trader than i am. i am long only one stock for the last 30 years, so i would consider myself probably more of a buy and hold investor than you are. i merely stated, while buy and hold is good, one can enhance the dividend yield by employing options. i directed you to 2 articles on the subject and if you google will see a 100 more. and what you posted above “my opinion”? well it is not opinions they are facts an every major brokerage firm agrees. go pray, you need to.

Ralf Holger: whoa guys, what is going on here this morning, mothers’ day getting to you?… can’t we all have an opinion without bitching ?

Jeremy Lvancevic: Ok how’s this sound. I make $1000 a month picking 65% on sports betting, therefore that’s a better investing strategy. Again, my point being nobody can be right with “what’s better”.

Jeremy Lvancevic: And by the way Frank, I see Joseph on here a lot and I never took him as a active trader at all. He does options/puts but that really isn’t active trading.

Steve Murdoch: There is no such thing as “THE BEST” strategy. The most important aspect on investing/trading is work with what you know and manage your risk appropriately. It also depends on your timeframe and income needs. Most people who are retired either need those dividends for income and therefore can’t reinvest them or they need to sell assets each year to provide them with income. I am guessing that those who were ready to retire in 2008 only to realise they had to work a few more years because their portfolio lost 30-50% weren’t too happy with a buy and hold strategy. I also wonder how the Japanese have felt about buy and hold since 1989. It’s very possible that same same affliction that Japan suffered in 1989 (Aging population, disappearing consumer etc) will happen in North America and Europe . Not saying it’s a bad strategy, I have a number of DRIPs in place on my portfolio but it cannot be the only game in town. It’s kind of like telling a golfer he can only use one club for all his shots.

Joseph Stadelnikas: steve, exactly. how many times in our COS group have you heard me preach, “a plan and money management” key to successful trading.

Frank Smith: My truly last post to this thread, I never said buy and hold was the only game in town. And Joseph you have consistently said stocks are riskier than options (again not talking about your particular strategy) How do people besides Joseph feel about that?It is true age does play a major factor (good point)I like the barbell approach, your bond to stock ratio should be based on your age minus 100 in bondsIs option trading riskier than margin trading?And for a young person who did not panic in 08, they are doing exceeding well with a buy and hold strategy. Also do you feel that trading options is a good entry point for a novice investor?And a lot of people who enter the the market for the first time have very little to lose. Let’s say they only have 2,000 would you advise them to trade options or buy and hold good growth companies, which may pay a dividend.Finally, I want novices to become experienced successful investors, so they can eventually become accredited investors.Joseph please refrain and let other people give their opinions.Finally, if everyone can remember, I told him I would look for into options if he would be willing to look into buy and hold and you would not budge. So who is really not being open minded.

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, i NEVER SAID OPTIONS LESS RISKY. learn to read, said selling puts on a stock has less downside risk than buying the stock.

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, you really should read a book because every post you make demonstrates over and over how little investing knowledge you possess.

Steve Murdoch: Frank, 2 specific examples … 1.) Deep ITM diagonal LEAP call spreads is the same as owning a stock and selling covered calls, except that there is a fraction of the capital at risk.

Steve Murdoch: 2. Selling Cash secured puts ATM (At the Money) is the same as taking a long position in a stock except that you are receiving cash and therefore lowering your cost when the stock gets assigned to you.

Joseph Stadelnikas: you really should learn to read. i said i know all about buy and hold since investing for 45 years. don’t need to budge been there, done that and i am long 5600 shares of iwm been long iwm 5000 to 10000 shares for last 30 years. so i think that counts as a long term investor. now frank move on.

Ron Michael John Burna: Uncle Joe

Joseph Stadelnikas: not your uncle, little boy

Ron Michael John Burna: It’s a good term sir

Ron Michael John Burna: I know u

Frank Smith: First Joe, breath, relax, count to 101)Steve, not Joe, Steve you are suggesting for a novice, repeat, a novice. Trading options ( calls, puts, naked, covered, leaps, ect….not strategies) but the basic principle of options is better, and less risky than buying and holding blue chip growth companies.2) Steve you would recommend options to a novice with only say 2000, because everyone can’t invest over 10,000 in the market3) Steve, side question, do you need to open a special option account, basically stating you are an accredited investor, or can any say go to Goldman Sacks with again 2,000 and say they want to open an option account4) Do most financial advisors recommend options over stocks, since there is less risk associated with options… Steve

Joseph Stadelnikas: all irrelevant questions

Steve Murdoch: I’m not recommending anything Frank. You asked a question, I answered it.

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, you are a fool, NO one said options in general less risk. get a life.

Frank Smith: Oh one more question Steve, again, for Steve, is the basic principle of options, again not referring to anyone’s strategy, but the basic principle of options is based leverage, since 1 option contract, represents 100 shares of stock, regardless of its a call, put, naked, covered, ect, but the fundamental principal is based on leverage, again Steve, not Joe.

Steve Murdoch: Actually the basic principle of options as they were initially intended was as a hedge against other positions.

Ron Michael John Burna: I think I need Jeremy Lvancevic to handle this

Jeremy Lvancevic: Lol how did I get pulled in this. My best advice is Sportsbetting. Like that Ryon guy I was trying to help win his $4k back but he didn’t listen.

Long Dang: Yeah he is trying to make a quick buck after all

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, you always make assumptions and never listen. are all posts just for novices? don’t novices want to learn to became better investors? you are the only person who uses the term novices. i understand you are a novice so maybe you should open your mind to additional ways of improving performance of your portfolio.

Ron Michael John Burna: The big short

Frank Smith: Margin bad, options goodLOL

Joseph Stadelnikas: finally we agree half on something. margin bad, conservative options good.

Frank Smith: Hey speaking of The Big Short, I didn’t see the movie, but wasn’t it based on CMBS products, Collaterized Mortgage Backed Securities, they are derivatives, as are basic vanilla options, and didn’t they almost destroy this country and the world, but again options are a lot safer than margin. LMAO

Joseph Stadelnikas: oh, thinking it is about time to block little frankie

Steve Murdoch: wrong again Frank… CMBSs are mortgage backed SECURITIES (like the name suggests) not derivatives …. but keep trying.

Dtone Fowler: Buy XYZ and hold = Good, Sell put to buy XYZ at lower price and Hold = Good, Sell covered calls or XYZ while holding = Good. Why are people arguing? Make Money in your own way = Good. Arguing over who makes money the best = Bad

Frank Smith: However when you strip the principle from the internet which happened, you have your derivatives

Joseph Stadelnikas: dtone, totally agree. never said any way is the best. only suggested an additional tool that is possible to enhance returns.

Dtone Fowler: They just want normal returns. Not enhanced though. Some are cool with normal. When you are cool with normal, nothing can beat normal. I don’t like normal

Joseph Stadelnikas: dtone, that is why one can read a post and if not something they are interested in, don’t respond.

Frank Smith: Interest payments

Steve Murdoch: what are you talking about?

Frank Smith: Dtone Fowler is right, I am willing to end this, if Joseph can.

Joseph Stadelnikas: easy frank, simply stop posting by putting words in my mouth that i haven’t said. and move on. ignore me. simply to do

Ron Michael John Burna: Uncle Joe

Frank Smith: Truce, you don’t bash my buy and hold and margin ideas, and I won’t bash your options ideas. Regarding our personal challenges, you don’t say anything until you close your position, and I won’t say anything until 12/31/2016Truce

Joseph Stadelnikas: i think if you read the threads, i posted that buy and hold is a good strategy. i really don’t know what your issue is. i have no personal challenges. i only post on your posts when you say things i haven’t said.

Steve Murdoch: Just so we’re clear …. judging by the topic of this thread, Frank, you intended it as a pissing contest from the get go. I believe this is a public group … treat it like one. Have a great day!! 🙂

Frank Smith: Just so you are aware, Joseph and I were arguing until late in the evening last night, and I said I would like for other people to give their input, since we were at am impasse. Is this not true Joseph

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, i am not arguing you are. just correcting the statements you posted that i never said. can you for once be honest? is that difficult for you?

Steve Murdoch: Frank I read that thread when I joined this group this morning …. I didn’t see an argument, I saw you not listening to Joe and not answering his questions. Nice returns for 2015… but I notice your portfolio was over 38% weighted in just 2 stocks. Do you think that is a well diversified portfolio?

Frank Smith: I think it is a well diversified portfolio, for a novice to learn from, my ideal portfolio would contain approx 150 stocks, since I plan on opening a hedge fund. But that would be too much for a rookie.

Steve Murdoch: So you think it’s smart to hold a $1,200 stock in a $5,000 portfolio.

Frank Smith: Again, this is for learning experience so they can see the appreciation of PCLN, or do you think if I put in F or T which do nothing, and YHOO doesn’t show dividends that would be a better choice, I choose the 25 best stocks to beat any portfolio. That it is why I put RGLD and SLW in there, even though they sucked last year, again to show rookies how buy and hold works, especially through sector rotation

Joseph Stadelnikas: 150 stocks. seriously. how can one manage that portfolio?

Ralf Holger: That is too many, too much for anybody and totally unnecessary 🙂

Joseph Stadelnikas: yep, 15-20 stocks all needed to by well diversified

Joseph Stadelnikas: even 10-15 do well

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, another simple question. if your strategy is buy and hold, that outperforms all other strategies, why open a hedge fund?

Ron Michael John Burna: The great race

Joseph Stadelnikas: isn’t a hedge fund a limited partnership of investors that uses high risk methods, such as investing with borrowed money, in hopes of realizing large capital gains.

Joseph Stadelnikas: you know frank, that term you use all the time…..leverage…..

Frank Smith: I have worked at SAC Capital in Stamford, CT and at a hedge fund for JPM Chase in NYA hedge fund is similar to a mutual fund, except it is only for accredited investors, it differs from a mutual fund because, it “CAN” short stocks, trade on margin, use options, forex, ect – it is for experienced investors.SAC – Capital was run by SEAN A. Cohen, a billionaire.As with most hedge fund mangers like Steve Ackerman of Pershing Square Capital, about 2 blocks from Wall St.My bioGMAT – 580Passed Series 7 & 3MS in Business ManagementThesis paper – Being an Entrepreneur and starting my own Financial companyBS in Business, specializing in FinanceLook at my website, under the accredited investors and institutional investors to learn about The 4 Quadrant systemI am familiar with most current hedge fund systems, like a Quant Fund, Long/ Short Fund, ectSo I am qualified

Ron Michael John Burna: U absolutely R….. U have the best Ops/Compliance Mgr in the business

Joseph Stadelnikas: really posting a resume? but frank, you told me explicitly that you have little knowledge of options. how can you manage a hedge fund?

Ron Michael John Burna: Hushpuppies

Steve Murdoch: Congrats Frank. All that background and at the end of 2015 you’ve buikt an impressive $4,958 portfilio. That’s simply amazing!!

Frank Smith: Because I can run it the way I want, John Bogle runs mutual funds and doese do any active trading. I don’t short or use options, but will use the TVIX – inverse to take advantage of a down turn in the market. I only posted my resume to show that I am not some picker or rookie who has no idea what he is talking about. And I tell everyone 10 – 20 stocks is all you need unless you are a Professional, and I am a Professional

Joseph Stadelnikas: HOLY WOW, a professional.

Joseph Stadelnikas: so let me get this. you join the group recently. you starting a hedge fund, posting your resume and posting you are a professional. do i see in the future you soliciting members to invest with you? or is that jumping to conclusions?

Frank Smith: This is what you see, a person trying mainly to help rookie investors, and my Great Race for 5 years is to show people like yourself how buy and hold works, for free. Getting clients is at least 2 years down the road, I mainly want to introduce people to the power of Wall St, especially my peeps in the hood. WORD

Joseph Stadelnikas: wow. don’t know any peeps in the hood, not in any kind of great race and i wouldn’t suggest to any “rookie investors” to put money into a hedge fund.

Frank Smith: Did you not read where a hedge fund is for experienced accredited investors, but I want to get my peeps, but first they have to be slowly introduced to Wall St., and that is why I keep saying for a novice buying and holding blue chip growth companies is a lot better intro, than welcome to the world of options!

Joseph Stadelnikas: so you dangle a carrot before them, they follow you and when you got them where you want them you slaughter them

Joseph Stadelnikas: what is a peep?

Joseph Stadelnikas: “my peeps”? what is my peeps

Bill Klingman:

Dtone Fowler: LOL. Just what I needed

Ron Michael John Burna: Lmfao

Ron Michael John Burna: People

Joseph Stadelnikas: oh i like those peeps, i want some of them

Joseph Stadelnikas: why not say people? how are people his? does he own them or something?

Ron Michael John Burna: Uncle Joe sir. Its 2016 not 1990

Joseph Stadelnikas: so i can own some of those peeps? d*mn,

Ron Michael John Burna: Its the norm to abbreviate words. He doesnt own people sir. He is not a slave owner. He only owns me

Ron Michael John Burna: Lol

Joseph Stadelnikas: wow, how do i get an owner

Ron Michael John Burna: I like u Joe again I respect and admire your credentials. I am gonna learn alot from u good sir. Let me know when ur in NY I will take u to LUNCH

Joseph Stadelnikas: lived in nyc long time the best

Joseph Stadelnikas: ask bill klingman. “i know nothing”

Ron Michael John Burna: U know enough

Bill Klingman: Ron I seriously suggest you listen to Dr. Joe.

Joseph Stadelnikas: omg, no, don’t do that.

Ron Michael John Burna: I like the good Dr. I am loyal to Mr Frank Smith

Joseph Stadelnikas: so peep is an abbreviation of people? only 2 letters different. young people fingers must be tired

Ron Michael John Burna: Lol

Ron Michael John Burna: I have worked for Frank Smith for 20 years. Literally doesn’t own me but I am his assistant

Joseph Stadelnikas: now i feel sorry for you

Frank Smith: Now that’s just mean

Ron Michael John Burna: I am backed by Morgan Stanley. Westchester

Ron Michael John Burna: Bill u feeling sir

Bill Klingman: Enjoying the entertainment.

Joseph Stadelnikas: yep bill i love our AH/BS threads

Ron Michael John Burna:

Frank Smith: Joe, it has been fun …ad usual, again I think you are a worthy opponent, and I might think about stepping up my option game, but have a great night, and Burna don’t leave any “doggie treats” on his lawn, he may one day consider me a friend.Peace

Ron Michael John Burna: Lol

Ron Michael John Burna: Remember Mr. Glass. He did it all for the kids as we do for our peeps….

Ron Michael John Burna: Im leaving for now. I have kids to tend to

Joseph Stadelnikas: hug those kids everyday

Ron Michael John Burna: U know it Dr. Thank u kind sir

Bill Klingman: Dr. Joe is a hard man except when it comes to kids.

Ron Michael John Burna: He has a good heart and a wealth of knowledge

Joseph Stadelnikas: Bill Klingman kids are our future

Frank Smith: …okay fair ground, I recently started a group called. A moms love can beat Autism.Who would have thunk it, we have a common ground.There is a God!

Joseph Stadelnikas: frank, that word offends me. i am not yours or anyones opponent. my boxing days are over 40 years ago. i only try to share what i know

Frank Smith: My bad, I apologizeYou will probably teach me some things, because you have a different point of view….so you were a boxer…kool!

Mike Burna: Honestly Uncle Dr. JOE Really reminds me of the heavy hitters from MS days

Mike Burna: Actually I like the good Dr.

Frank Smith: Good times then, …and now.Love!

Mike Burna: Joseph Stadelnikas have a blessed night Sir

Joseph Stadelnikas: ditto

Frank Smith: See, it is all good in the hood!

Joseph Stadelnikas: what’s a hood

Bill Klingman: LMAO!

Joseph Stadelnikas: bill, i am surprised you have any left after all these years of lmao

Dtone Fowler: Joseph Stadelnikas Its a place where people buy Jordan’s instead of shares of Nike

Joseph Stadelnikas: what’s a jordan?

Joseph Stadelnikas: is that a stock?

Dtone Fowler: Joseph Stadelnikas It might as well be

Bill Klingman: Dr. Joe you don’t do a very good job of acting stupid.

Joseph Stadelnikas: ok, i will research it

Dtone Fowler: Get a pair. You have earned it

Joseph Stadelnikas: right after i buy one of those smart phone things you can take pictures with

Dtone Fowler: Those come in watches now also

Joseph Stadelnikas: i don’t own a watch, is time important?

Mike Burna: Frank Smith

Dtone Fowler: I once saw in a movie that one day we will pay with time instead of money so it must be

Joseph Stadelnikas: well d*mn i am running out of it

Joseph Stadelnikas: it’s like theta decay with options

Bill Klingman: Time for another beer.

Joseph Stadelnikas: that exponential decay is going to kill me

Joseph Stadelnikas: always a good time for another beer

Dtone Fowler: Its almost time to kick the bucket then.. lol Seriously, have you seen the movie “In Time” Very good. Time is money literally. When you run out, YOU DIE!

Joseph Stadelnikas: now bill i expect you too tell me in the group about doing a diagonal on aapl tomorrow

Frank Smith: Truth!

Joseph Stadelnikas: Dtone Fowler nope missed it. i don’t watch movies

Bill Klingman: I mentioned that a week ago and no one listened.

Joseph Stadelnikas: nope but that 50 jan18 strike looks nice and with aapl down 30% looking good

Dtone Fowler: I think you would like that one. In the end, they pulled a Robinhood theory maneuver and stole all the time from the rich 1% and everyone quit their jobs and the world went to shit!

Bill Klingman: I’ll be looking for your trade.

Joseph Stadelnikas: wmt tempting into an individual stock in oct and aapl teasing me now

Joseph Stadelnikas: not sure yet. thinking about taking the profit of wmt and going into a diagonal aapl

Bill Klingman: Yep WMT worked very well.

Joseph Stadelnikas: yep up over 60%

Dtone Fowler: Joseph Stadelnikas I almost took that trade but I hate buying options

Bill Klingman: Later, late dinner for me.

Joseph Stadelnikas: dtone, started as a diagonal, used short call to pay for the ask time value

Joseph Stadelnikas: later bill

Dtone Fowler: Joseph Stadelnikas Nice! Very Nice. And that didn’t even cross my mind. Dammit

Joseph Stadelnikas: Dtone Fowler when the short call pays for the ask time value in first month or two. you have control of stock for 20-30% of cost of stock, not a bad deal

Dtone Fowler: Joseph Stadelnikas I love that concept. I missed the entire Walmart play. Competition from Amazon had a part on keeping me out

Joseph Stadelnikas: Dtone Fowler in oct amzn dominating. looking at all their competitors i came to conclusion only one stock had the cash, the management and desire to compete against online amazon shopping and that was wmt. in oct after a large drop bought the jan17 45 strike call for 14.30 and sold covered call to pay for the time value. after several short call premiums call is at 23

Dtone Fowler: Joseph Stadelnikas Did you sell the same strike/exp or higher?

Joseph Stadelnikas: for the wmt diagonal?

Joseph Stadelnikas: i used my diagonal plan per my paper until i made up ask time value and now i am just long the call. when wmt is at 70 i will start selling calls again until i find better opportunity

Jeremy Lvancevic: Spurs -1 tonight. Easy $1000

Joseph Stadelnikas: what was the probability, lol

Jeremy Lvancevic: 100%!

Joseph Stadelnikas: you the man

Jeremy Lvancevic: Joseph, should I buy and hold the bet or do a live option? LOL

Joseph Stadelnikas: i thought you just bought a call